Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

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Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Alisdair » Sa 22. Feb 2014, 10:38

I am sorry for posting this in English, I don't know German, and I don't know if Translate works.

Hi all I am in Australia
I am extremely desperate at the moment.

A few months back I bought two TT600R's (98/99) with the intention to make one good bike out of the two.

One was bought from action as a stat write off, it was stolen and recovered. Missing the rims, CDI and the wiring was in a mess. Suspension and motor were mint though.
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The other was bought cheap off Gumtree from the Gold Coast, it was meant to be sold as a runner, however, the owner couldn't start it in front of me.
Didn't worry me, I got it cheaper as I was mainly after the frame. Took it home, started the first kick for some strange reason. Motor was smokey, rattly, broken mounts, just a flogged out bike.
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The bike had an intermittent spark, it would either start first kick, or not at all. So my father and I cleaned and checked every single connection on the bike, and tested every component we could. It appeared that the CDI was buggered, so I bought a CDI from a place in Belgium since Yamaha wanted over $1200 for a replacement(HPI ignitions) This appeared to cure the no spark problem, the bike would start, however it would give a major kickback. Overall we were happy with the aftermarket CDI, so we decided to try to get Auction bike running.

Swapped the rims, and the carbs (Carbs in the Auction bike were full of gunk). Chucked in the CDI, and there was no spark, the wiring harness was pulled to bits from whoever stole the bike, so we swapped the wiring harness. There was still no spark, after a bunch of stuffing around, it finally got spark again. However, it was almost impossible to start due to the kick back.[size=8pt]( Getting just over TDC and jumping the bloody thing)[/size].

When the bike was started, it ran really well, pulled through all the gears, lifting the front with ease.

Started to swap coils/stators/pickup/ everything, and no difference was made to the bike. After a few weeks of messing around, we eventually lost spark again. After a few weeks of not getting anywhere, we went to a local bike mechanic, explained our situation and he suggested a really well known Auto-Electrician workshop. They took the bike in, after a few days I got a call back saying they fixed it and were starting it daily, saying it must of had connection somewhere. Took the bike home, and it would not start at all. Rang them up the next day and they told us to take it back in. Supposedly the spark plug had fouled on it.

After this the bike started/rode amazingly for a few weeks, Started first kick every kick, and I rode it for a few hours everyday around the yard[size=8pt](I was on University break)[/size]However, after a few weeks had passed, it was back to the kick back issue. Impossible to start by kicking, we tried clutch starting the bike. This was next to impossible due to the compression it has.

Today resorted to tow starting it. Pic bellow to explain the set up. Pipe over the axle

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Took it around the back yard, would just lock up in every gear and tear the grass up, turned over a few times, but not enough to justify the damage to the yard. Took it on the driveway and it would just lock up going down the dirt driveway, so we took it onto the road [size=8pt](Private bitumen road)[/size] , after some serious backfires/kickback sounds it started. Ran really well, let it run for a while to warm up. We then decided to use to original CDI again. We got the bike started going down the driveway, and it didn't appear to backfire/kickback as much.

So we then tried to get a timing light on it, and the timing light we have, we couldn't get to work. Not 100% sure why either. Turned the bike off, and started it twice first kick! Tried for a third and got major kickback. Swapped the aftermarket CDI and just got instant kickback. Swapped the CDI's back and forward for a while and we are just getting kickback.

Sorry for the long post, I am really desperate for help at the moment.
Alisdair
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Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Pedro » Sa 22. Feb 2014, 11:40

Hello and welcome here.

if I understand your Text correct, you have a starting problem with your TTR.

You have checked the electrical componetnts of your bike.
Also the pickup from the generator?
The aftermarked CDI works correct.

Do you have checked the carburator an the intake rubbers ?


What about the wirings ?
Is it possible that one of the cabels is broken ?
You have to look in the near of the steering head.

At your first pic, the speedometercable isn't placed correct.
If you ride in this way, it may be damaged.
It has to look like this:
tt600r_rot_a_bild.jpg
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Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Torn » Sa 22. Feb 2014, 19:14

The kick-back sounds to me like a broken wire in the pickup/-wiring. Please check the pickup (left engine-cover), the resisteance of the pickup-coil, all the connectors and wiring. The resistance is between 192Ω and 288Ω at 20°C (68°F).
Next to look for the wiring of the killing-switch. The TTR needs 12V for running the CDI (so correctly ist a TCI, because it steps up 12V DC to 200V to charge the ignitioncoil) and you can try to run the engine with an small battery. If its easy and without problems to kick and ride the bike with battery, your problems might be on the generator or regulator (or wiring).
The spark isn´t very strong on these machines.
Torn
 

Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Alisdair » So 23. Feb 2014, 13:02

Thanks for the replies

I have 2 of every electrical component, I have been checking them all and they appear to all be within spec.
I will test the pickup again, however when the bike starts it is fine. Could a bad pick up cause kickback?
I have checked the rubber intake boots, they are not leaking,
It may be possible that a wire somewhere is broken, however I have checked all the connections, and a electrician has checked it too
The photo is old, that is how I got the bike, I haven't really been able to ride it yet, but thank you soo much :) I knew something wasn't right with the speedocable.

I will test the pickup resistance soon, and I will post what I get on here. I have checked the kill switch, It seems to work well.
I will test how many volts are going into the CDI as well.

I will add a battery as well and try kicking with it on.

Thank you so much for your replies, if there is anything else I can check, please tell me. I am really desperate

Al
Alisdair
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Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Torn » So 23. Feb 2014, 13:24

There is a woodruff key for aligning the rotor on the crankshaft - it´s not usual, but with the wrong torque on the nut it can break an the rotor will be able to turn on the shaft - so the timing will be changed and cause kickback. If the signal from the pickup is wrong, it will cause kickback - the older models have a double-pickup to check the kick-timing (about 12° before TDC) and the calculating timing on running engine (36° before TDC). The TCI has a single-pickup which is about 54° before TDC. So it´s a problem with lower voltage than 12V, because wrong caculating ignition-unit or the timing isn´t correct cause by broken wire/pickup/woodruff key. This would be my personal choice of eliminating the problem.
Torn
 

Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Alisdair » So 9. Mär 2014, 05:05

Hello everyone
Thank you for your replies.

I had a friend come over with his 98 TT600r, and we tried the 2 aftermarket CDI units in his bike.
They did not work, the bike was making a weird sound from the Carburetor.

I tried his CDI on my bike and it started 2nd kick

So I am thinking the problem is with the Aftermarket CDI units.
I got them from HPI ignition in Belgium, has anyone tried them before?

I sent them an email and hopefully they will replace the CDI units.
Alisdair
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Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Torn » So 9. Mär 2014, 07:58

http://www.ignitech.cz/en/
they are good working and programable. I thinke AndreasP has at least one on SZR660 (5V - same crankcases) for racetrack.
For the TTR600 there is an easy DIY projekt in the web based on Atmel Attiny 2313. Requires some equipment to create pcb´s and programming the Atmel.
Torn
 

Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Alisdair » Di 11. Mär 2014, 12:08

I have a video with the bike running on the original CDI unit.

It is like the bikes rev limiter comes on too early. I had an XT600e and it seemed to rev higher.

Does the bike sound right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2_spZdeLNI

The bike produces a weak spark with the original CDI.
I can hold onto it when kicked, and it doesn't hurt much.
It randomly starts up when kicking it.

I have sent an email to HPI Ignition, and hopefully they can help me out by either testing/fixing/replacing the CDI
Alisdair
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Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Torn » Di 11. Mär 2014, 17:19

At low rpm is sound nice! Have you tried using a battery? Cause your engine struggles in higher rpm, it can be a lack of electric energy. The TTR steps up the voltage from 12V to about 200V for the ignition. These step-up-converter has a current peak at the first moment of switching on up to 150A (only nano- or microseconds, depending on switching speed etc.). For current storage there is only a capacitor on your bike with about 5.000-8.000 microfarad - thats poor. Probably the capacitor is faulty (a cheap replacement would be a standard capacitor with at least 4.700 microfarad at minimum 50V, also available with small screws for wiring) or you have problems with your generator or regulator.
You can check the resistance of your generator windings: 0,6-0,9Ω (every option on white/white, cause you have 3 phases).
The limiter will come much later - my old TT from 1987 can reach 8000 rpm (I never tried more than about 7800 because I love my engine and the accelaration of the piston will be too high!).
And yes, the spark is poor - I never tried for fun! But it has not much current. I used to have some isolation problems years ago and on rainy days I felt the soft electric prickle through the gloves (the ignition coil was faulty).
Zuletzt geändert von Torn am Di 11. Mär 2014, 17:34, insgesamt 1-mal geändert.
Torn
 

Re: Trouble starting Yamaha TT600R (English)

Beitragvon Alisdair » Di 11. Mär 2014, 17:34

Thank you for helping me out.

So the capacitor may be the reason for the high rpm issue?

I will remove the capacitor and try using a battery.

How many volts should I get from the generator per kick?

Then how many volts should be entering the CDI unit per kick?

I will post all my resistance values on here

I got an email back from HPI ignitions: (Because the aftermarket ones always kickback, but run well when started)

They said they have a ''special regulator'' that helps with starting the bike.
Do you know how it would help start the bike better?

Regards
Alisdair
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